In this episode

This month in the Yes Collective, we’re focusing in on building and maintaining deep, nourishing, and authentic relationships. So of course we wanted to kick it all off with Ryel Kestano. He’s the author of Authentic Relating: A Guide To Rich, Meaningful, Nourishing Relationships, he’s a relationship coach, and also the CEO of a company that trains people all around the world in the practice of Authentic Relating. The super basic definition of Authentic Relating is it’s a set of ideas, practices, and games designed to teach people how to be their authentic selves while connecting deeply with other people and allowing them to be their authentic selves. A typical authentic relating session is like a set of really deep icebreakers that help people practice being authentic and present with themselves and open and caring towards others.

We had Ryel on the podcast way back in episode 12, and it’s still one of the most downloaded and discussed episodes we’ve ever done. We think the reason for this is that authentic relating is profoundly transformative not just in our relationships but internally within ourselves. It shows us how often we shut down, relate to others through habit, scripts, or agendas, or just miss opportunities for deep and real connection.

In this episode, we talk about the five practices of authentic relating, how they relate to every relationship in our lives from work to family to dating, and how authentic relating is a practical tool for cultivating emotional health in nearly every aspect of our lives.

Yes Collective is co-hosted by Justin Wilford, PhD and Jenny Walters, LMFT.

Justin Wilford, PhD, is a co-founder of Yes Collective, an educator, a writer, and an emotional health coach. He earned doctorates from UCLA (cultural geography) and UC Irvine (public health), and specializes in translating complex, scientific ideas into actionable programs for mental and emotional health.

Jenny Walters, LMFT, is a licensed marriage family therapist and senior expert contributor to the Yes Collective. She is a graduate of the Pacifica Graduate Institute and is the founder and director of Highland Park Holistic Psychotherapy in Los Angeles, California.

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About our guest

Ryel Kestano is the author of Authentic Relating: A Guide to Rich, Meaningful, Nourishing Relationships, a relationship coach, and the CEO and cofounder of ART International, the leading AR training organization in the world. He travels globally to deliver AR workshops to people of all beliefs, backgrounds, cultures, and values, including prison inmates, corporate executives, and college students. He believes that the Authentic Relating programs can help anyone create more authentic bonds with ourselves and every single person in our lives

Show Notes

Ryel's authentic relating training organization, ART International

Get Ryel's book, Authentic Relating: A Guide to Rich, Meaningful, Nourishing Relationships

Check out Ryel's non-profit, The Realness Project

Ryel's private coaching website

Transcript Highlights

Justin

Ryel, thank you so much for coming on the Yes Collective podcast a second time. So we had you on for episode 12, which was amazing. We had really just overflowing response to that. People wanted to know more about this weird thing, authentic relating. So I do want to point listeners there if we are going to do a little basics of authentic relating.

You also went into a lot of your own history coming in to authentic relating in that podcast, so I encourage people to go there. Episode 12 So I was thinking as we were leading into this episode, which is going to kick off our month around authentic relationships, authentic connection, and all of February, I was thinking about my trainings with you and with the training company that you helped to found Art International, and I remember you sent out a clip in one of the trainings.

This was the leadership training that I took on. It was a Gabor Maté clip and he talked about how every child has to face this tension or this choice between authenticity and attachment, and that as humans, we have to, as kids, always give up authenticity for attachment, like we have to make this choice just simply for our survival.

And that's why we all end up coming into adulthood, needing authentic relating and needing these practices because early on we had to give this stuff up. So before we dive into authentic relating and what that's all about, I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about this, this tension between authenticity and attachment, how that showed up for you in your life and how you eventually came to want to move into authenticity?

Ryel

Yeah. Nice. Thank you. Awesome. Super sweet to be back here. Appreciate being in the space again with you, Justin and journalism. Yes. You know, Dr. Marté pointed out something that I thought was so, so potent and so relevant and so personal for so many of us as you describe this almost mutually exclusive value for secure attachment held against our authentic expression.

And here he had said that for a child to grow up in a healthy environment, they really need to be supported in both of those values. But as you also indicated, the vast majority of us grew up in a condition where our secure our the nature of our attachments were in some way threatened. We learned from an early age if we show up in this particular way, it results in connection or attachment being withheld or redirected.

And so there's a sort of conditional culture that we grow up in, in which we have to almost strategize even at a young age, to be able to ensure the security of our attachments. And those strategies become ingrained in us and follow us into our adult relationships, where many of us are still strategizing in the context of intimate relationships to ensure that the relationship, the connection, the attachment is secure, and that we ward off any potential or perceived threats to that attachment.

And so, as you said, authentic relating. And my company, Art International, we're not only trying to reeducate or even offer an initial education in authentic expression, but we're actually demonstrating a complete paradigm shift around that binary mutual exclusion where they actually become synergistic. So the more authentically expressed I am, the more secure are my attachments and relationships, and the more secure my relationships are, the more authentically expressed I can be.

Which actually makes sense because if we bring our whole selves into relationships, we're not playing any games, we're not strategizing, we're showing our full selves, we're bringing our vulnerability. We're recognizing that we're taking a risk by showing our whole full selves and how people might react. But in my experience, personally, and as I've seen in now thousands upon thousands of students and graduates, it's the reverse.

When we are willing to take the risk of showing our vulnerable selves, most often actually people that we're in relationship with come closer and drop their own guards, draw out their own strategies, and join us in this integrated sense of whole self and relationship. And that's the that's the starting point to access the depths and realms and breadth of the nourishment that's available in conscious relationship.

Justin

Jenny how did that land for you? Ah Well, first first of all, Jenny, what are your thoughts on this tension? Authenticity and attachment and how did that land for you?

Jenny

Yeah, no, I mean Amen is how it lands. I love the, the language the way the language points out that tension because I couldn't agree more. And I had a therapist once say to me when I was working through a difficult loss of of a relationship and sort of recognizing the unconscious patterns that I had acted out in terms of protecting that relationship, even at the cost of my own well-being.

And my therapist said the child will choose attachment every time. And so it was about coming into this understanding that my child parts had really engaged with this person and had also worked hard to maintain the attachment, even though it was causing me a lot of pain. So it was a big wake up moment for me personally and certainly shows up in work with clients and stuff as well.

So yeah, I just think it's a really important thing to point out and also just love what you're saying about how this can be synergistic. How that we can start to, well, we have a second chance as adults to start to do attachment a little bit differently and get to bring authenticity and but that that it doesn't have to be the ending of our story that this was how it went as a child and therefore how it has to go as adults.

Ryel

I just wanted to tag on that actually, one of my favorite quotes of all time is by Tom Robbins. He says It's never too late to have a happy childhood, which really gives us the invitation to go back and really reconnect with the both the innocence and the pain of childhood and to include them, to integrate them, to hold them.

I also wanted to name that I don't want to send the message that somehow you're supposed to do all this personal work by yourself before you're actually ready to step into a conscious relationship. I don't think it's that way at all. I think it's actually using the arena of conscious relationship to do a lot of this work, of healing, of wholeness, of integration.

Really the key, I think, of bringing those elements into conscious relationship and really what is the spirit of this practice of authentic relating is to bring awareness and consciousness to these aspects that constitute the self. So if it is that I'm reverting back to a childlike need for secure attachment or validation or affirmation, I can notice that impulse and I can name it to the person that I'm in relationship with.

Hey, I, I notice I've got this part of me. I'm scared. I'm anxious. I notice the impulse to reach out and grasp for attachment. And I just want to name that and share that with you. And that's the seed that leads to the most trustable relationships, I think that are possible when we're able to bring such transparency and honesty and an all encompassing awareness into relationship.

For me, that's actually what creates the most trust of all kinds of relationships.

Justin

I was just I was going to say, I'm just imagining there are listeners who are like, Oh my God, I don't I if I did that, if I did what Ryle just said, share, I noticing a childlike part or I'm scared or that I, I'm, I would be afraid of being rejected. I'd be afraid of being critically judged.

And this brings me back to one thing you said at the beginning was, you know, it doesn't have to be a dichotomy between attachment, authenticity. In fact, you know, as as we learn to become more authentic, we also become attached. But I'm also imagining, you know, we didn't learn this dichotomy out of nowhere, like we were treated in this way.

At one point, either by our parents or, you know, with school kids or whatever else. And so this so I'm wondering what you would say to the person who was like, oh, that that couldn't work. That that couldn't possibly work.

Ryel

Yeah, Well, I mean, then we get to include that as well. So if it is that someone's having the experience of, oh, well, like if I share that then, you know, I'm setting myself up for rejection and I'm too afraid. Well then share. Exactly that. I notice that as as I prepare to share this, I'm really scared that you're going to reject me or judge me or push me away.

Again, all of that is worthy of bringing into the conscious, explicit relational space. I mean, imagine if you heard somebody you care about, share that with you, the kind of impact that it might have on you. I imagine for most people it would sort of leave you unguarded and curious and lean then and and caring for this person and their experience and wanting to really tend to this, you know, vulnerable, sensitive, delicate place that they are.

So, you know, the alternative is just to keep it up and shove it down and suppress and not bring voice to it. And how is that going to then manifest in the context of an ongoing relationship that values trust as a central principle? And that's how a lot of people are navigating through, you know, in the longer term relationships is, again, strategizing how do I stay safe in this relationship?

How do I ensure that I will never be rejected? And interestingly, it's actually the carrying out and manifesting of those strategies that ultimately often produces a breakdown or disintegration or disconnection. And so it might be counterintuitive initially, but I so encourage people to take the risk of revealing what's actually true for them and seeing what happens if it is that you reveal your authentic self to someone that you're in relationship with and they turn around and say, Well, you know, I don't want to have anything to do with you.

Well, then I think that's probably a effective litmus test for the quality of the relationship to begin with. If they come back and say, well, like I really appreciate you sharing that, I feel closer to feel more connected to you. Okay, well, then you have an indication of the underlying foundation of this relationship. Mm.

Jenny

I'm so curious. I wonder, too, if other listeners are curious about this. I'm wondering about you in the world as you move through your day. Like, is is air coming up with your interaction with the bank teller or is it coming up with in specifically like truly like intimate relationships are you utilizing these this this approach just across the board?

And if so, what does that look like? What does that sound like?

Ryel

Yeah, it's the skills and tools are definitely meant to be applied across the board. And even the smallest or, you know, most minute or fleeting encounter of human connection to decades long lifelong relationships and everything in between. They really are. They really are applicable to anywhere that humans are interacting. I will say that there is no preference or bias in authentic relating to push you into connection if that means overriding some boundary value or need.

It's actually to be really rigorously honest with yourself. If I'm you know, if I'm underresourced and I'm feeling inward and introspective and I'm not really available to connect with anyone, then I'm going to live my life in alignment with that and authentic relating really is just revealing what's true. That's all it is. And offering the skills and tools to reveal what is true in oneself and relationship in the world.

And so definitely I love having a moment of meaningful interaction, even with the cashier at the grocery store or the bus driver or, you know, one of the most common stories I tell is when I was first learning this practice, I was traveling on airplanes all the time. And I play this little game where I want to create a kind, any kind of connection or experience of intimacy with whoever I sat next to on the airplane and just bring in these skills of curiosity, of revealing, of intimacy, to bear on those interactions overwhelmingly.

I got to have the experience of intimate connection, even if it was just for a brief moment. So I definitely encourage people to apply these skills and tools across the board. And I think in even a few seconds worth of an experience of I see you and I'm seen by you provides nourishment. It provides something of value. It's almost like your heart is filtered just a bit more in these small but meaningful interactions that we get to have with people as we go through the flow of life.

Jenny

Yeah, that's beautiful. I just yeah, I just had a memory of a time I was accidentally did air. I didn't know anything about it. This was years years ago, but I was at a camera store and the man helping me was just very cranky and rude, and I was really young and I was getting very just anxious being around it.

And I just said to him, you know, I'm not sure what's going on, but I just would like to buy a camera. But if this isn't a good time, you know, I can come back. But I'm so sorry that you're having such a hard day or something like that. And he just stopped and he said, I am so sorry.

I am in severe back pain and I deal with it every day of my life. And I am so sorry. And I just don't realize how I come off and we ended up having this, like, really lovely moment, an interaction where I could have easily just stormed off and said, you know, screw you. And, you know, just kind of.

So it was just so I appreciate those beautiful little fleeting moments for those that get that connection and humanity gets to unfold is really rich.

Ryel

Yeah, that's a great example that actually speaks to what we developed, what we call the five practices of authentic relating. And the second of them is assume nothing, which is the invitation. I recognize the assumptions that I make about people that I encounter in life and how often those assumptions may just store or constrain or warp what is actually real, what's actually happening.

And then I just carry about as if my assumptions were what's actually happening. And so your examples are a perfect example of transcending the what can be the constraining way the assumptions act on us and getting to be with what's real and inviting somebody into meaningful connection. And I imagine for him just to be heard for a moment and seeing in his experience, made a real difference, even if it wasn't like you did anything about his back and just for a moment of being able to meaningfully be seen, it matters so much, I would say all the more in this modern world, you know, and at the pace that we're moving and how we are

being ever more technologically mediated and our connections, just to take that extra moment, to bring some meaning, some carries and presence to these interactions, I think makes an enormous difference in people's lives.

Justin

So Ryel, you mentioned the second practice of the five practices of authentic relating. I want to talk about these, but before we do, I heard you define authentic, relating something like revealing what is what is true, something along those lines. I'm wondering if you could give us your your kind of full authentic relating definition that that.

Ryel

Yeah. I mean one way to look at it is kind of like you're living in a house with multiple rooms, attic, basement, living room, all that. And there's just parts of the house that you have closed the door, turned out the light locked and just pretended like it didn't exist. Right. So imagine, like a basement. You just put all your shit out in the basement.

It's just all kinds of stuff you don't want to deal with. You don't want to see, you don't acknowledge. So it all just gets thrown in there, door closed, you know, lock it locked and keys thrown away. And at some point you're probably going to start hearing or smelling or perceiving something emerging or emanating out of that basement that's going to affect the quality of your life, the quality of your relationships, your quality of a sense of well-being, of being at home and yourself.

And the longer you persist and ignoring and suppressing and turning away from what's behind that locked door, the more it's going to impose itself on your life and undermine, you know, your objectives, your goals, your values. And so authentic relating is supporting us lovingly caring with people by our side to go down, open the door, turn the light on, and take a good look at what's there.

That's the only way that we're going to really be able to integrate these aspects of ourselves that otherwise are going to continue to sabotage our lives and our path in life. And we got to do it together. We all have a basement to some extent. We all have, you know, a bunch of jumbled stuff left over from, you know, past memories and experiences and, you know, past patterns and struggles.

And so, you know, for example, in our courses, we all venture down into those, you know, sort of subterranean areas and places and take a look and see what's there together. And it's not so bad, actually, once you actually are willing to take a look. It's the, you know, the demons and the odors and the fears actually turn into things that are fascinating, interesting, so worthy of our curiosity and exploration.

And the end result is that we get to live in a house that's illuminated, that's integrated, that's interconnected, and that leads to an experience of being really secure and at home in self and in relationship.

Justin

So Jenny is a depth psychologist, and I wonder what you think of this analogy. Jenny, The the the basement, the locked depths in our in our own internal homes.

Jenny

I love it. Well, I love anything. All the different ways we can we can use the imagination and the imaginal to illustrate this concept of shadow work or shadow or the unconscious or all that, all that yummy richness. I love that. I love that metaphor. I mean, it's beautiful because it creates the foundation upon which the rest of the house can be built.

And so it speaks to me. I'm curious if you could speak a little bit about where authentic relating came from, where it originated and how it developed, and also what is its relationship to other communication practices that we're hearing about, like nonviolent communication or circling or can you speak a little bit to that?

Ryel

Yeah, well, I say authentic relating certainly is built upon the work of the great psychologists of past, you know, 60, 80 years. Carl Jung For sure. And as you know, development of of shadow and shadow work and as value for wholeness. Carl Rogers Certainly. And as value for the the the skill of reflection of really being with a person in their world for its pearls and coastal therapy.

So there's there's certainly some recognizable lineages in the psychology world that have informed this practice. And then you mentioned circling that that's been more of a formal structure for really being with each other in a profound deep hole way. Really for for us, authentic relating has been deconstructing the practice of circling and teaching the constituents skills and tools so that people get to experience that depth of connection, of intimacy, of closeness, of revealing anywhere and everywhere with anyone, any time.

You know, there's sort of like anecdotal backgrounds, you know, that are stories, fables from which this came. It's a fairly new sort of modality. It's probably maybe 20, 25 years old, I would say. And then there were certain communities primarily in San Francisco and then in here in Boulder and then in Europe. They were starting to spring up.

They were taking the very first sort of explorations of this practice and formalizing them into workshops and, you know, communities, I would say us at our we our whole mission has been to really bring authentic relating to a much broader, wider audience and had always been really confined to more of the personal development communities. And when I first encountered a I, for me, I realized that this is this is the language of human connection that everyone should have access to.

It shouldn't be constrained or limited to the certain few who have the luxury of taking time off for a workshop or can afford it like that. I really wanted to bring it to a mainstream audience and at the time that we started, ah, we also started a nonprofit organization to bring these skills and tools to inmates in prisons and jails.

Because I was so convinced that the suite of skills and tools are as applicable to, you know, the most non workshop experienced person on the planet. You know, it's just fundamental skills for human connection that I think we all really could greatly benefit from, if not outright need. I mean, it's no secret that the quality of our relationships dictate the quality of our lives, right?

If you talk to people nearing the end of their lives, what regrets do have? It's most often they regret not spending more time with the people that they love and care about. And yet we don't. We are never most of us are never taught skills and tools. Resources and practices to be able to derive the most quality experience, the most nourishment from our intimate connection.

So, you know, I think for us, we've really advanced the evolution of this practice to making it relevant to mainstream audience. And interestingly, as deep as I've been in this world, it's a little bit ambiguous as to the very specific pioneering milestones that started this, this whole practice, which to me says that it's actually almost latent in the human collective consciousness that we're in some way bringing back and making explicit and formalizing into a set of skills and tools.

But I think it lives in all of us. I think we are all programed to thrive and human connection and community. And I think we lost our way somewhere along the line. And we're here to just sort of bring us back in a connection with each other.

Justin

So while you mentioned the second practice of authentic relating, which is assume nothing, there are four other ones I want to be mindful of time. So I want to focus on the first one, which I think is it's really powerful, but it's also really edgy, I'm sure. But it's welcome everything. And so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about where this came from, how people can begin to practice, welcome everything and how does it lead to greater, more authentic connection.

Jenny

And before you answer that, could you just for the listeners, just run through the five, just just name the five and then dive deep?

Ryel

It's welcome everything, assume nothing, reveal your experience, own your experience and honor self and other And I for sure I could spend a lot of time on each of those, but welcome. Everything is the first one for us. It's the gateway, it's the first step. Can't really skip it and access the rest of the practice. And it really speaks to what we were exploring earlier on the nature shadow, the parts of us that we turn away from suppress a void and just imagine being in relationship with someone.

Something bothers you about being in connection with this person, something they did or said, but you don't say anything. You just push it down and you just carry on and pretend like it didn't happen. And then it happens again and then it happens again. Imagine the impact of that. Likely it's going to lead to some simmering resentment if it's not named and brought into the space of it's not welcome.

And then that starts to pit us against the other, right? It's like me against you. It's a zero sum game and so welcome. Everything, for one thing, creates the conditions in which the people that I'm in relationship with are my allies and fellow collaborators. No matter what is coming up for either of us, we get to bring it into the shared space and explore it together.

We have a whole bunch of skills and tools for how to bring some of these aspects into a shared space in a way that remains relational and connective, but really at its essence, welcome. Everything is invitation to look at all that's happening, to notice more for sure. I think the greatest transformation that occurs in this practice is the practice of noticing, noticing what's happening in myself.

And as I start to notice, I start seeing as more and more and more of the subtleties of nuances of my present moment experience. And all of that is actually cultivating intimacy with my own self, and again, cultivating that experience of being at home in my skin and my body, in my life. Welcome. Everything then scales out to the whole world.

What parts of the world am I pushing away or ignoring or pretending like they don't exist? How is that going to then manifest and likely manifest in a kind of split inside of myself? And so welcome. Everything has a look toward lean toward, open our eyes, open our senses. What's actually happening there? It does not mean agreeing with or approving of or aligning with.

It just simply means becoming aware of. And then from that awareness, we have the opportunity to make intelligent choices in life instead of just reacting or being reflexive based on partial information, because we're suppressing or turning away from aspects or dimensions of ourselves, others or the world.

Justin

Yeah, I remember first hearing this and I was like, Welcome everything. Like, really everything. And, and this was a really cool practice for me. It's like, Oh yeah, even that even, you know, I can I just be aware of that without, without trying to lock it away, push it away. But I'm wondering how So I'm in relationship with another person.

I maybe we are entering there's some friction here. I want to, I don't want there to be friction. So how would I welcome the friction that might be coming up or a conflict that might be rising? Something in the other person that I don't want to welcome.

Ryel

Yeah. Yeah. Well, couple a couple responses. One is you get to welcome even the part of you that doesn't welcome without needing to change it or fix it, right? Often it's the welcoming of our own resistance or avoidance that can alleviate it and dissolve it. So I would say that and then we have an enormous value for capacity to be uncomfortable without trying to alleviate it or run away from it or escape it, actually lean into discomfort, or at least the experiences that we commonly describe as discomfort and to explore it to breathe into a lot of our work is around staying rooted in our bodies, in our breath, in our equanimity, to feel grounded within ourselves. And over time, I mean, it is a practice just like learning anything over time we can and do develop a capacity to be ever more with experiences that we describe as uncomfortable. And it's through the surrendering into it, the leaning into it, the welcoming of it, that the discomfort actually can itself be alleviated and almost like a fog is lifted to reveal the makings of what is real and true intimacy.

I think it's vital that we cultivate a capacity for discomfort if we are committed to experiencing the depth of intimacy that is available between us and others.

Jenny

I love this so much. I love this so much because I'm thinking about I work with a lot of therapists and do consultation and training and some it's something that therapists really, especially starting out, really are quite frightened of and anxious about is what we call negative transference, right? When there's something that shows up in the field between the therapist and the person that they're there with.

And I always just say it's grist for the mill. You know, it's because if you can trust and have faith in the fact that there's liberation on the other side of that discomfort, because, like you're saying, once it's made explicit, there's liberation. It might be the freedom to be in your feet, you're free to be in the truth.

And the truth might mean that we come closer together and create more intimacy. And sometimes it means we we come apart. I mean, that does sometimes happen, but either way, it's the truth and it's clear and it's explicit and it's freedom. So amen to this. I just I love it. And there's a way, I think, to like you're saying, just to grow some resilience around discomfort and realize doing that internal work of understanding, it's not actually annihilating even though it can feel like it is or that it will be.

Ryel

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And as you as you pointed out, I mean, over time, as we are willing to remain to rest, to breathe in discomfort or being on our edge, as it turns out, our comfort zone expands that which used to feel terrifying or so confronting. We're actually willing to rest. Are you there and explore there? Over time it'll become all the more natural and easy and comfortable and grounding to be in these places.

I mean, I have multiple personal experiences of of, you know, areas of the human life that I was terrified of having public speaking, you know, to name one. That's pretty universal, terrifying. I mean, it's existential crisis, you know, And as I sort of cultivated my passion for this work and was ever more leading things and, you know, in the spotlight, the comfort zone expanded more and more over more so incrementally.

And so, you know, now I'm I'm excited to get on stage in front of hundreds of people and share about this work and whatever else. So, you know, that's one of the great features of the human experience. One of the great gifts is our ability to transmit to that which was uncomfortable and to something that's eminently comfortable. And we can apply that to everywhere we want to look in life.

Justin

And now scientists will just call it neuroplasticity. That's so like clinical. Yes, we have the ability to transmute. I love it. So real. I want to make sure we have enough time to try something. But I just realized I did not get explicit permission from Jenny. Jenny, are you up for trying in AR game or in our practice?

Jenny

Yeah, sure. I was. I thought I was going to watch you too. Since you're pros.

Justin

Well, I'm certainly not a pro, but I'm happy to do it with all of you. If Ryel’s up for that and if. Yeah, sure. Would that be okay with you?

Ryel

Yeah, for sure. What do you have in mind?

Justin

Oh, well, okay, so, I mean, you you are like, gosh, you wrote the book on it. So this. Yeah. So is there in AR practice that would be, you think would be okay for a podcast like eye gazing might not work on a podcast.

Ryel

That's funny it's interesting that you mentioned eye gazing and we you know we used you associate I guess with, you know sort of being at workshops and especially around this type of stuff. And that's what we were doing very early on. And we realized actually that there is such a depth of intimacy and engaging that often can't be boundaried against with choice, with discretion.

You know, if I say, okay, everybody start, eye gazing then I have skipped a massively important step, which has concerns and checking in, am I available for this depth of intimacy with someone? I mean, you know, we want to empower people to arrive at a, you know, context of connection. That's really right for them and aligned with their truth.

Jenny

And I, I yeah, I love that you're you've said this three times now, and I think it's really so important this that the authenticity starts here with self. You know what what am I up for? I was thrown into eye gazing the first day of graduate school, at therapy school and with, with 25, there's like 25 people I've never met before.

And you're you're so vulnerable going into this program and you don't know what to expect. And it was it was terrifying. It was too much, you know. So I appreciate you saying the concent part is important.

Ryel

Yeah, totally. So, you know, I would say one of the most fundamental practices we have is simply noticing. But that's why one of the most useful, easily digestible for people to understand. And it also speaks to the the value of the experience, the depth, the connection that's available in the present moment here and now. Often we're just lost in story.

We're talking about things that are outside of the here and now, and to bring the attention and focus to what's happening right here, right now with us is most often what produces the most intimacy and presence and trust and connection and so what we call the noticing game is one of the easiest and earliest that we introduce to students to get a real sense of the spirit of the practice.

Justin

All right, so the noticing game, Jenny, I just want to check. Do you want to do that?

Jenny

Yeah. You know, if we have time for all three, let's all notice.

Justin

I've, I've only done it in pairs.

Ryel

Now you can do it however many people there are.

Justin

Well all right so we'll just go around round. So it starts off with, with with the first person saying being being with you, I notice. And then everybody else is going to follow hearing that, right?

Ryel

Yes. Yes, that's right. Yeah. So I'll just go around a few times and, you know, the invitation here is to soften or drop any filters that might be on the way to let go of any scripts that might be sort of programs in the mind and to really check in and trust whatever's coming through, whatever is alive and present for you.

And the moment that you start to share what you're noticing. So why don't you start us off and then and then maybe, Okay. And then Jenny and I would go around a few times.

Justin

Okay. Okay. I was not prepared to start off. So being with you both, I notice. Well, I notice a desire to bring my attention inward. And it was really outwardly focused. I was thinking about questions and both of you. And now in this game, I notice I really want to check in with myself. And I hadn't been checking in with myself.

Ryel

Nice. Yeah. Hearing that, I noticed the desire to slow down, to join you in that. And then there's also this sort of niggly like awareness that people are watching this and that we're supposed to be providing some kind of value for people. And it's distinctly different than us just being in a room together ourselves. And it also has a very visceral impact on me of wanting to slow down and stay in touch with my inner world.

Jenny

And I notice when you say that that I have lots of parts that are very awake in this moment as I check in, and it's difficult for me to feel the way I want to feel of of like really dropping in. I find that my attention is going in lots of different places, of feeling aware that this is being recorded, that I'm in front of someone I've never met before, feeling a lot of vulnerability with different parts, wanting to do it right and be good at it.

Justin

Hearing that I notice even further slowing down and calming. You shared that, Jenny Just getting a window into your world and feeling some resonance, but also feeling like, Oh yeah, I know Ryel I've known Ryel for a couple of years now and this is this is a calmer, easier experience for me. But Even so, I'm noticing all of the busyness and activity as well. So how I'm noticing a connection with you. Jenny Yeah.

Ryel

I mean that I'm, I'm noticing now that the two of you know each other probably better than any other configuration here. So maybe I'm the one who's on the outside looking in or something, which then taps into a lifelong pattern of feeling like I'm on the outside, kind of appearing in through the glass as everyone else, getting it or having fun or on the program. And yet there's a little hint of sadness. As I touch that part of me.

Jenny

Hearing that I notice both more connection with each of you and and in resonance with what you just shared in that I too, have that that feeling of being the outsider, being very awkward. I can feel my armpits have been sweating throughout this conversation, and that's a familiar bodily feeling I have of this kind of anxiety. But I feel a calming in hearing you say that and hearing you share your experience.

Justin

So we went around twice, Ryel Is there a way to like, close out the game or does it because I've only done this in scenarios where it's been timed and it's just like you're done. Is there some sort of natural close.

Jenny

Five hour later we're still here.

Ryel

And it's the kind of thing that you could do one exchange back and forth and that's meaningful and you could go on for hours, literally hours and hours, which I've done in this exact format, just going around and just gets deeper and deeper, more and more sort of transcendent as we become ever more kind of unified and connected.

Ryel

So I think that was a really sweet little taste of what's possible, you know, And even here just just in a little exercise, you know, I imagine we all feel a little bit closer and more and more connected.

Justin

Totally. And what I love about this practice is it I mean, it really does touch on all of the authentic relating or on all the five practices. Do you find that Ryel that it like you get to do them all?

Ryel

Yeah, Yeah. I mean at this point I don't, it's like I don't think about the sort of theory of it, you know, which is actually I'm not, I'm not alone in that very quickly. You know, people are exposed to this work and start to step in to recognize that it's already embodied. We're just almost kind of reactivating the dormant circuits that live within.

But yeah, as you pointed out, absolutely. Yeah. It's the noticing game really does encompass so much of the spirit of this practice.

Justin

One thing I saw was at a retreat a couple of months ago, and there was some authentic relating at this retreat. And we did the noticing game and we would circle around. And I was one of the few people who had ever been exposed to any of this.

And so I would go around, so I would be paired up with people who'd never done this before is great. But one of the things that I noticed was how quickly almost all of my partners would say something like hearing that makes makes me feel. And one of the things I learned and authentic relating was like noticing that just notice what you're feeling. So will there there's this is it the fourth practice where it's own your experience right so someone didn't make you feel that you can you can only own your experience you can say I'm noticing all right. So I'm noticing maybe a feeling of being left out. Not that. Yeah. I mean, that makes me feel left out. Yeah. And it's this, like, powerful transformation.

Ryel

Well, yeah. I mean, encoded in a statement like you're making me feel this way means I'm giving you power over my experience more than my own. Like you're now dictating my experience, right? So it's inherently disempowering, I think, to use language like that. And I don't think it's accurate. Right? You feel impact. We have enormous, you know, principle practice and value around feeling impact.

Things happen in the world and with people that naturally are going to have impact on you. And so the practice is to name that impact. This is how I'm feeling in this moment, being with you or being with us or being in the world.

Justin

And then the beauty of this owning as as you did so beautifully is that when you own it, I'm noticing that and you this lifelong pattern. So what the feeling that you were able to notice was then also related to so much more. And that speaks to what you were saying before, how once, once we start to reveal, once once we start to open up, there's just so much more depth here than we could ever.

Ryel

Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, we have this concept called the hologram, which essentially says that how you show up in one moment is how you shop and every moment, which is sort of an allusion to a reference to the underlying patterns that run us all through life and survive a pattern or a wound or, you know, sensitivity around being on the outside or left out.

I'm going to notice instances of that or find evidence for that all over the place. And they don't exist in a vacuum. These isolated instances, they're connected to an underlying pattern. And because authentic relating is such an illuminating practice, it helps me has helped me see the underlying pattern. And then I have an opportunity to heal it, to integrate it, to transform it, instead of just being enslaved to it unconsciously. And and that, you know, pretending like these are just isolated moments that are dictated by the current circumstance. They're not they're all interconnected and interwoven.

Jenny

It seems like I love when you said the word practice, that the practice, the practicing is really about for I'm imagining for a lot of folks just even tuning in to what it is they're experiencing and feeling, which may be a completely foreign concept, let alone sharing it with another human being. You know, when people don't have that, just especially you grew up in families where their internal world was not held no value and wasn't something that was that they were ever invited to engage with or language.

Ryel

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's a whole rich world happening. I mean, I spend most of my life right up until I discovered this totally cut off from my body, totally disembodied, disassociated. I didn't know any different, but I was still being run by all the things that were happening in my unconscious. I had no awareness of them and couldn't speak to them, can reveal them.

I couldn't name them. And so it's been, you know, an extraordinary practice in these last ten years that I've been in this to be able to reconnect with the richness of my inner world. And there's just so much happening there. You know, there's there's so much information and guidance. And other thing that kind of our motto as said is that our bodies are living repositories or archives of collective wisdom that's been passed through the generations that that sort of gut sense that we sometimes have, it just feels right or wrong or something is aligned or not aligned.

It's just a feeling. That's what he's talking about. And in our ever accelerating modern world, the the far one of the fallouts of that is losing contact with that sense of inner guidance and intuition that has been refined over multiple generations to keep us oriented, to keep us alert and awake and attuned and oriented. We're losing contact with that.

And I think we're seeing the fallout, the consequences, the ramifications of that disassociation manifested in collective breakdown.

Justin

So we have time for, I think just one last question. We had a bunch more lined up, one last one, and then we'll go into our final quick three. So for someone who has started to dip their toes into authentic relating, took a couple training classes, love it. Doing the practice. How do they bring authentic relating into conflicts that might be arising with other people in their lives who know nothing about authentic relating?

So how do we actually do this? With the vast majority of people have never heard about this. I've never practiced it.

Ryel

Yeah, that was the question we strove to answer from the very beginning and designing every one of our courses to make it such that the people who graduated from our courses could bring these skills and tools into connection relationship with people who never would never have been otherwise exposed to it and still be able to facilitate meaningful, deep, intimate connections and relationships.

That's been a central principle and value that we've had in designing all of our courses. So we spend at the Level one, which is our introductory course. We spend the last almost third of the course exploring conflict and skills and tools that we can take on to navigate through conflict. Often people just have it in their mind that conflict is an unfortunate byproduct of humans bumping into each other, and it's best to be ideally avoided.

And if it can be avoided just to get through it as quickly as possible and out the other side. And for us, actually, conflict is a profoundly intelligent mechanism of a healthy relationship. It's necessary. It's exactly designed to reveal and unearth the hidden, the unexpressed, the suppressed, and bring it out into the open so that we have an opportunity to see it, to look at it, to collaborate in how we want to navigate through it with skill and the right intention.

Conflict always transforms to more intimacy, more empathy, more understanding. So it's actually an essential component of healthy relationships and and it benefits enormously. It benefits from bringing specific skills. So, you know, we teach all that at our courses. But yeah, I mean, essentially it's so much of it is built upon listening. By listening is the most important precursor for being able to really cultivate deep, whole conscious relationships with people, especially through conflict.

So that's where we benefit from slowing down from tuning into the body. What pattern of mind is being manifested or expressed or concentrated in this moment? What am I really afraid of? It's almost never about what's happening at the surface and almost always about something deeper, right? And so by slowing down, by bringing ourselves into collaboration and alignment with someone allyship, with someone, we get to peel the layers back and look at what the deeper layers are.

And those are just so human. They're so tender and human and we get to feel closer in those instead of pitting ourselves against each other. So that's a little taste, you know, we'd need more time to go into the specific skills.

Justin

Yeah. Yeah, I want to. I think it's a perfect segue way to talk about authentic relating training. So if people want to dive deeper, want to get to know more about this, you have online and in person trainings. Can you say a little bit about art and just any other way people can get involved in what you're doing?

Ryel

Yeah, sure. So at ART, we offer both in-person and online courses. The in-person courses are all around the world on a regular basis. We've been in over 50 locations on five continents and then online they're running all year round. So I'd recommend people to go to the website Authentic relating dot co, and it's all there is lots of free materials.

We run twice weekly free community calls that we welcome anyone who wants to get a taste so you can check those out. I have a new book out. You can see it right behind me there called Authentic Relating a Guide to Rich, Meaningful, Nourishing Relationships that just came out about three months ago and available on Amazon and elsewhere.

So that's another resource. And then you can come check me out at my website real Castano dot com and I offer coaching primarily. Now I've kind of migrated out of group facilitation and more into coaching. So that's a quick summary of next steps people can take.

Justin

Awesome. So Ryel, our final three questions we give every guest. First, if you could put a Post-it note on everyone's fridge, everyone in the world, what would that Post-it note say tomorrow morning right there.

Ryel

Slow down.

Jenny

And just hearing that makes you want to take a deep breath. You know.

Justin

It's never about like, I don't know. I mean, I guess the only time you don't want to slow down is if your house is on fire. There's an emergency or.

Ryel

But I want to I want to just jump. And even then, if you're just reacting like a crazy character, chaotic, you know, chicken with their head cut off, you're going to make rash decisions because you're just operating from a very limited part of your neurobiology. Even if your house is on fire, take 3 seconds even just to bring online some more rational thought in how to navigate this experience and you will benefit from it.

Justin

I learned something. Well, it makes me think of the Navy SEALs have have a quote right about like the slow slow is smooth and smooth as fast or on or something like that. Yeah. Always, always.

Ryel

I mean, like like the tortoise and the hare. Everybody knows that story, right? I mean, this is not I'm not it's not rocket science. I just think we forgot it. So I think it's so laid an end to our our deep awareness. I remember reading just very briefly, I'll share this this study that looked at the habits of indigenous tribes around the world

Ryel

And and universally these try to spend more time doing nothing than any other activity like overwhelmingly amount of time. Do they spend literally idling, lazy, nothing non-active. Right. So I think it's hardwired for it's deeply ingrained in us. We just somehow, you know, found ourselves on this treadmill.

Justin

Yeah. As well as a recovering academic, I always just, I, I, I try to never say always. And so as I continuously try to think about the, you know, one, one scenario where you wouldn't want to slow down, but maybe you always, always want to slow down 100% of the time. Oh, yeah. So the second question is, what is the last quote that changed the way you think or feel or just really moved you?

Ryel

I mean, I've always kept the one I shared earlier close to me. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. You know, I'm always partial to some of the more famous young Carl Young quotes, right? Until you make the unconscious conscious, you will call it say, you know. So are there any like new ones that have come across.

Yeah. Nothing, nothing immediately springs to mind. I mean, one that one that I've said that just sort of bubbled up is you cannot prepare for future authenticity. And so yet this is the sort of antidote to the scripts that are ingrained in us. Just let those go, just be in the moment unprepared, unscripted, be messy, be human, you know, be vulnerable and see what happens.

Justin

I love that. Thank you. And the third and final question is what is one thing that is giving you hope right now?

Ryel

Hmm. I would say I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is having come into contact with people like yourselves here who are really committed to awakening and healing and depolarization and reconnection at the highest levels. You know, I'm fortunate that I get to live in a world where I come into contact with people really doing the hard work of trying to remind us of our shared humanity.

And then they're out there, we're out there, you know, and we get shut down and, you know, stumble and we just keep going. And I'm very blessed to be surrounded by and connected to many other humans around the world who are really striving to remind us that we are all human and we all need each other more than we do for real.

Justin

Thank you so much. This is an honor and this is the second time on the podcast. But will will not be the last.

Jenny

I'm noticing, as you say, that I'm in deep gratitude for you and the work that you're doing. And thanks for spending the time with us today to share it with more and more people.

Ryel

Thank you so much. A pleasure to be here. Always enjoyed being here with you and look forward to the next time. Yeah.

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