In this episode

Grief is often an unseen and unacknowledged companion for many of us throughout the holiday season, whether we feel the loss of a loved one or feel the sorrow of another's loss. In this very special holiday episode of the Yes Collective Podcast, Jenny and Justin talk with grief expert and licensed therapist, Vanessa Fierstadt, LMFT. We dove into the definition of grief, how we come to acknowledge and process grief, the importance of rituals around grief, and the use of non-ordinary states of consciousness to access grief more fully.

Vanessa became a young widow at the same time she was coming to work in mental health. As a wife in her 20s, deep in the throes of loss, she struggled to find a place as a young griever. Inspired by the daringness of the way in which her partner lived in the face of adversity, Vanessa enveloped herself in a process of mending. She began to connect to her own broken pieces with light and meaning by specializing in grief work for those in more complex grief. Today, she channels her lived experiences and specialized training to create containers for courage, support, and community in the face of despair. In 2023, she'll be doing this work at her newly opened Kintsugi Grief Center.

Yes Collective is co-hosted by Justin Wilford, PhD and Jenny Walters, LMFT.

Justin Wilford, PhD, is a co-founder of Yes Collective, an educator, a writer, and an emotional health coach. He earned doctorates from UCLA (cultural geography) and UC Irvine (public health), and specializes in translating complex, scientific ideas into actionable programs for mental and emotional health.

Jenny Walters, LMFT, is a licensed marriage family therapist and senior expert contributor to the Yes Collective. She is a graduate of the Pacifica Graduate Institute and is the founder and director of Highland Park Holistic Psychotherapy in Los Angeles, California.

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About our guest

Vanessa Fierstadt, LMFT, became a young widow at the same time she was coming to work in mental health. As a wife in her 20s, deep in the throes of loss, she struggled to find a place as a young griever. Inspired by the daringness of the way in which her partner lived in the face of adversity, Vanessa enveloped herself in a process of mending. She began to connect to her own broken pieces with light and meaning by specializing in grief work for those in more complex grief. Today, she channels her lived experiences and specialized training to create containers for courage, support, and community in the face of despair. In 2023, she'll be doing this work at her newly opened Kintsugi Grief Center.

Show Notes

Check out Vanessa's private therapy practice here

Justin mentioned the book The Smell of Rain on Dust

Transcript Highlights

JUSTIN

We wanted to have you on Vanessa so that we could talk about something that is really important for mental and emotional health. But I don't think it's talked about that much. And that is grief. During the holidays, grief and sadness, confronting and processing and holding painful emotions during this time of the year when we're supposed to all be happy and going to holiday parties.

And yeah, I just wanted to foreground why we're having this special, this very special holiday episode of the Yes Collective Podcast.

JENNY

It's funny because I'm like, Well, doesn't everyone want to talk about grief? And holidays? I mean, truly, that's I actually find it a relief to name a reality of, you know, what's happening. And I think that tension between the joy, the seasonal, you know, pressure for joy, not to mention traditions that now may be interrupted by the loss of someone, how to create new traditions.

I mean, there's just so many layers and richness to this that I can't believe it isn't talked about every season. I'm sure it is somewhere by someone, but I'm happy. I'm really glad we're doing this and I'm eager to learn.

JUSTIN

Awesome. And so we have Vanessa so we would love to just start by hearing a little bit about you, how you came to work in this world of grief.

VANESSA

Yeah, and I so appreciate that we're doing this because, you know, this is so I mean, I do this every day with people and in my life. And the biggest part about opening more avenues for people to talk about grief. And like Jenny said, it's like, you know, it's the one thing I think, especially around this time of year that people don't want to talk about, they want to avoid it.

But when we actually bring it up in conversation, people are like, Oh, I'm so glad that you're actually like naming it and we're having a conversation about it because I've been holding it and there's no one I can talk to that I feel that I feel safe, that I can grieve with without feeling judged about it, or that I have to wrap it up in a bow, right?

Like kind of this symbolic thing. So I'm really glad that we're having this discussion to open it up to people in that way. Really meaningful, I think leaning into it rather than leaning out of it, which I think is a societal thing. Right.

JUSTIN

So, Vanessa, I'm curious, do you feel comfortable telling about your your story?

VANESSA

Yeah. So as I was a new baby therapist in my life and I had met my my partner and the love of my life, Greg, in college. And when I met Greg, he had been he had just come out of treatment and remission for his very rare form of cancer called Ewing's Sarcoma, when he was in his twenties.

So we met in college. He had already gone through his treatment and we fell in love. We had this beautiful I was thinking about it so interesting. I was thinking about him this morning as we were coming in to this podcast, as I was talking to someone yesterday about remember the good and not just the painful, and there were moments and memories that I had this morning of him that I hadn't really dealt with for a while.

And so it was such a beautiful thing to come in here and talk about him today. But he was the light of my life and forever changed my life in this way. His cancer came back in 2000, well before 2011, but progressively came back more and more as our relationship progressed as well and eventually ended up taking his life.

I we got married near the end of his life, which was beautiful. And he was able to be surrounded by all of his family and friends at this time. But in that I had just been I had just graduated from my master's program. I was working on my hours when he died, and I had no idea what grief was.

Grief was not talked about in my program as I talk to a lot of other therapists about I mean, we had something called aging across the lifespan. You know, which is kind of like how we age. You know, we think of we get older, right? We our grandparents may die, but we don't talk about disenfranchized grief. And here I was, I was 26 when Greg died.

So I became a widow when I was 26 and I didn't fit anywhere. I had just moved to L.A. so we could be together. And I. I tried with all my mates to find a place for myself where I could feel support. And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a war widow, so I was kind of outcast from that area.

People were like, Oh, well, he wasn't, you know, in combat. So you can't join this group. And, you know, it was and then I found other groups, but they were, you know, and they'd had a lifetime together, you know. And so I'll never forget and I use this often, I went to a grief group of people who had been married for 40, 50 years.

They were in their seventies and eighties and here I was and my 26 year old self. And their message to me was, You're so lucky you have the rest of your life to live, to find somebody. And to me, at that time, I was in such a state of depression and sorrow and shock that I and I don't remember exactly what I did not know it, but it carries with me to this day because I remember thinking, that's the worst thing that someone could say to me.

I don't want to live the rest of my life, you know, I don't want to live the rest of my life without my person. So this kind of started this shift in me of I didn't have what I needed in my Disenfranchized, my life, my grief. Where do we where do people go? You know, this is just me as a widow, let alone talking about children who lose parents.

We talk about perinatal loss, miscarriage, you know, all these different types of disenfranchized losses where people might not have a place to go. So this had Greg death really projected me onto this journey of trying to create something that I didn't that I didn't have, that I needed so badly in my in my loss. Thankfully, I did find a wonderful therapist, individual therapist who works in grief.

And she's still in my life and she's wonderful. And thank goodness for her. But having that community piece was so important. And so that's how that's how I got here. And, you know, at the beginning of my journey, I was not, you know, time needed to heal so I could actually see clients in grief. But naturally, somehow I think people knew that I had experienced this as a widow and as a therapist.

And so people would refer people to me and it would kind of trickle in. And I was very like, okay, let me test this out. Let me see if I'm ready. And eventually, over time, it just blossomed into like, why wouldn't I do like, why wouldn't I do this? Like, this is my heart, this is my soul. So that in a lot is how I got here.

JENNY

The thank you for sharing. I've heard this this a few times now and it's always, there's always new details and layers to it that you share. Vanessa And it's thank you for sharing that with us. And and as I'm sitting here, I'm struck by the fact that I think the three of us have different experiences with grief. I'm thinking about all the work that you've done, Justin, with parents who've lost children and then Vanessa, what you just described.

And I and I feel like what shows up in my work as a therapist a lot is working with people with very abstract grief. So parents who are still living but they are not in relationship with for a variety of reasons. I work with a lot of adults who've been with narcissistic parents and things like that. So strained relationships, fractured and ruptured relationships that create an immense amount of grief and loss around what never got to happen as a child.

And so it's just interesting. I'll be curious how our conversation unfolds today in terms of those different it's all grief but experienced in such and such different ways.

VANESSA

Yeah, I appreciate that. And there's so, you know, we talk about this and not, you know, there's death loss and then there's non death. All right. And that's part of grieving this part of the life, even though the person still living. Right. But having having that absence of them in that part comes up so often. And so I'm so glad that you bring that up because we want to make sure we're validating that for people as well, that that's real.

JUSTIN

So, Vanessa, I I'm curious, was there a moment in that journey where there was there like an a-ha moment? You're like, Oh, this is grief. Or like, oh, this is like there's like some, some kind of big revelation or was it this gradual understanding of what grief is and how it can be traversed?

VANESSA

I think in my personal life, the the depths of depression that I felt and not wanting to be here anymore after he died was a very profound feeling for me. That was something that I had not experienced in my life. And I couldn't tell you that that it was located on a map before. And so that for me was huge.

And I was like, Oh, like, people feel this. People feel this being on an island, people feel this not getting off the floor. People feel this despair, you know? And that for me was the first time in my life that I had experienced that. I think this revelation of the needing of community and needing support around it and the lack thereof in that part definitely came in waves and came gradually.

And as part of, you know, we need to do better for our readers, we need to do better and supporting them so that those pieces, I guess that are know that kind of blended along the way.

JUSTIN

So I'm curious and I feel kind of silly asking this so far into our discussion. But what, what is grief?

VANESSA

You know, I often equate or I often describe it to people as like a phantom limb. You know, if you could think about having some appendage of you that you've had all of your life, and then all of a sudden you wake up and it's gone, or you can't walk in the same way that you did, or you can't pick up the spoon for your cereal in the morning, like having something that's yours that you've had all along, that, you know, all of a sudden shifts without without warning.

Right. And that we're kind of thrown into it. And so for me, grief is really about peace of the absence of something that we've we've had we've known our familiar ness and really having to sit with and sort through the missing of those pieces. Right. And what do we do with that change?

JUSTIN

Jenny, How does that land for you?

JENNY

It lands. I was also thinking about the kind of grief for the thing that you've longed for that that you see other people experiencing. And you and you don't get to experience it for yourself for some reason in terms of I'm thinking about parental relationships and things like that and just coming into connection with that kind of grief, which is I think more abstract.

And it's easier to sort of not come into contact with and not connect to. And yet when you do, it can be quite overwhelming, especially when you're I think just like when you're doing like parts work with folks and stuff and you kind of come into that connection. But I'm curious, Vanessa, about, you know, so much of grief, the grief conversation I think is being had by folks who are on the other side.

And I'm wondering when there's a place where you're able to get past that kind of I can't get off the floor acute pain. And you're able to experience some feeling of the depth of love and the beauty that's woven in that immense pain. And I guess I'm just wondering if there's any words for the folks that are in this holiday season, that are in that acute place where they're not to this other place where there's something that gets to feel rich about this experience.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's making sense. Yeah.

VANESSA

It does. You know, I think this this piece, especially the acute pain, you know, we've talked before about the fog, you know, and I think the survival of especially for me the first year is like I barely remember. I mean, I remember pieces of it. But this part of having that brain fog, having that grief fog, you know, we really go into this survival mode, I think, in coping in these moments with people who are in the acute phase.

I always talk about and coming up with talking about a plan in terms of like creating on a plan A and a plan B for the holiday time. You know, some people just kind of want to go in and wing it, which I think is okay. But I think sometimes having something again, that grounding, knowing where I'm going to be, who am I going to be with, what am I going to be doing for myself?

Am I going to be in, you know, doing some of this ritual, you know, being able to also have it just be a day? You know, we've been talking a lot about holidays in my grief groups and some people like, I don't want to do the holiday. Is it okay for me to just kind of we're not going to do Hanukkah, we're not going to do Christmas, we're not going to do it or since I absolutely like this is also the time to cultivate, you know, a different path.

Right. And being able to create new rituals for you or no rituals at all, that actually brings some sense of like, I can take a deep breath here. So I think that part is really important and I and I, there's this piece of this quote I love by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and it's a long one. So I'm not going to say it right now, but the feeling is, if I can sit with you on the other side of this and look at you and tell you that I've been here and that there's a there's another side to this.

Right. Kind of trusting that we're going to make it through this together. You're going to make it. Let me hold that let me hold that hope for you, because there was a time also when I didn't think I was going to make it through this either. And so that really landed me for people. And I, you know, I let people know I don't share my story with people unless they ask me no.

If they ask, I'll do what I can, you know, and most of my readers are that's such an important piece for them to know that someone said on the other, you know, across the room from them on the couch and saying, you know, I was there.

JUSTIN

So you mentioned ritual. So I said I wasn't going to mention this book. Just for the listener. Right before we got on, I asked Vanessa if she read this book called The Smell of Rain on Dust. And I said if you hadn't read it, I'm not going to say anything about it. But now it just came up because one of the points that the author makes is that we live in a society that is profoundly lacking in, in, in, in real grieving rituals. I mean, we, you know, we have we have like the funeral. And then there are some cultural rituals that might be a little bit more common.

But for the most part, we're kind of flying blind when it comes to grieving rituals. So can you say more about this?

VANESSA

Yeah. Yeah. And we just did a little workshop last week for the practice about our rituals. It's really fascinating when you when you look back in history, I mean in our especially here in the US I to think we really don't have a grief culture and and we just had you know we just came out of the day of the dead, you know, Dia de los Muertos and what a beautiful we talk about ritual, what a beautiful cultural ritual in that in that culture.

And I think, wow, we really miss, you know, we for me anyway, like leaning into that, what does that look like if we don't have it as a culture? There's private ritual, individual rituals that we create and social ritual, it's a container, right? If we look back in history, we've had rituals for for for bringing rain and nurturing our earth and like bringing, you know, and people will do all sorts of amazing things.

JUSTIN

Every life transition.

VANESSA

Right? For every transition. Yeah. You know, and what a beautiful thing it is. And I, I, for me in my work this is like the piece where I really like if I could nerd out all day on different rituals that have taken place and what they were for like this, this, for me is just so nurturing and feeds my soul, so on that, you know, I think a lot of what's left out, not only are we not talking about grief, we're not talking about, well, what do we do with that?

It's not just a verbal thing. I'm about movement, right? It's the beginning of acute grief. We are frozen. We become like this solid, like I can't move. Right. And for me, so much of the work is about thawing out and being able to melt some of that really heavy grief away. And I think in doing rituals for the self and this could look like and we've been talking lately in my groups about holiday time and what our personal rituals and it can be simple little things like lighting a candle for a person while we're still around our family and like they're at the center of the table.

Right. It's really interesting. This this tangents off a little bit, but it's on the same breath of I think so many families are going into the holidays with everyone thinking about their loved one, but no one wants to talk about it. And this came up in a group I had the other day of, Well, I want to do this thing for them at dinner.

And I was like, Well, great, well, I'll just do it when I get there. But that makes me feel really nervous. And I said, Learn, don't wait till you get there. Just have the conversation, bring everyone into the dialog. Let's do this together as a family without you going into it feeling more anxiety than you already need to.

Right? And they were like, Oh, I didn't think I didn't think I could do that, you know? And so bringing people into the ritual, because most people, when you bring us in, they're like, I really want to do something. I just didn't know what. And if you would be comfortable with it. And I would, you know, and so there's so much eggshells going on.

And so it's just like, let's just put it out there, you know, and it becomes such a beautiful then it becomes less individual and more again, social, right? Because everyone is in a collective of grieving together and a beautiful way.

JUSTIN

So the rituals can be co-created in that space.

VANESSA

Right? Yeah, absolutely. And this is this is the beautiful thing for me. I think people hear the word grief and they go, oh, don't go there. That's painful. Oh, I'm going to be on the floor. I'm going to cry. And I'm like, But it doesn't have to all be that way for me. So much meaning and beauty and joy has come into my life that I know would not have been there had he not had I not lost him.

And I think in doing these rituals we're evoking and we're allowing those pieces that love, remember with love we don't have to remember with pain. Yeah.

JUSTIN

Vanessa, what came out for me just then was. Oh, if. If if you feel like if we did this ritual together, you'd be on the floor crying then that's okay. Can we create a space where that's okay?

VANESSA

Right, right, right. And be in it together, right? Because if we're both feeling that, it's like, you know, and I think there's that vulnerability, you know, that people are. So it's interesting, you know, people are so concerned about, well, how are the people going to feel? Or if they're doing it together, it's like connecting in that sorrow.

JENNY

I hear two things right now. You know, one and I feel like there's two things I kind of want to talk about or ask more questions. One is the simplicity of the ritual and being surprised by what might happen. And maybe it's that you end up on the floor crying and there might be also something that surprises you.

You know, last night my wife wanted to light a candle for the people who were killed and injured at Club Q and feeling into an immense sadness around, you know, that that shooting and just grieving. We have some other queer friends who've experienced death threats being called into their businesses and things like this and I noticed in that moment that I had kind of disconnected and disassociated from experiencing any emotion around that news and that my wife was really in it and really feeling it.

And I could feel sort of a resistance around wanting to light a candle. But I also was really curious about what that might be like. And so she lit the candle and she had written something and it was just us and our dogs and and I. And it really transformed something inside of me in terms of just giving permission for some feelings to be felt and some grief to be felt, and also a moment of connection with my wife.

And I was just really grateful and it was so simple. It was just this little, you know, two minute thing that we did together before we, you know, went on and watched our shows or whatever. So I just I just love what you're saying about the simplicity and kind of allowing there to be some room to be surprised by what might what might happen and not assume what what you think will happen.

Yeah. And then the second thing I just wanted to ask you about was this walking on eggshells piece because, you know what I hear so much, and I think I recently heard there was a study that like 70% of people don't know what to say to someone who's lost a loved one. And that the advice I always hear is always say something.

It's better to say something than nothing. But then you also hear all the things not to say. And so I can really understand why people feel confused about how to be around someone who is grieving. So I wonder if we could just talk about that for a minute, just as people head into the holidays and maybe spending time with their loved one who's lost someone or some thing in some way.

VANESSA

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's really great. And it's something that comes up all the time, you know, for griever and also for family members of what do I say, what do I do? And we know this to be true as grievers. You know, I think a lot of people want to take it. They want to make it better.

They want to they want to take our pain away. And I say to people, there's nothing that you can say that is going to bring them back. So be gentle and kind with yourself, not feel like you've got to conjure up some magical thing that's going to make it make it better for me. I tell people to show up, be present.

There were so many cards that were sent to my house, so many grief books that showed up at my door, which by the way, was really funny. And I remember what I remember the most is people who showed up who would just leave soup at my door, people who would show up just to sit with me. For me, the showing up and the present in this and we hear this repeatedly in groups and individual, too, about people who say, I can't believe so-and-so hasn't reached out.

It's been six months. I can't believe this person hasn't called me or texted me. That really is painful to me. And so I think from a lot of people, they want connection and they want to be seen and heard. So for me, I say to the people who are out there who are not in grief, be present, show up, let them know that you're there.

There's nothing that you need to say or no magic words that are going to take the pain away from them. But they're going to remember that you came by. They're going to remember that you brought that cup of soup. They're going to remember that you said that you sat with them in terms of your asking about words. You know, and I think this is authentic, being able to say something like, I know that there's nothing that I can say that's going to make this better, but I'm here for you, you know, and I think Griever is appreciate that authenticity because it's not something that they can't connect with or that feels like a facade to them or feels. So I guess that's kind of, you know, what I would say in terms of being and showing up.

JENNY

It reminds me of something that happened with my mom after my father passed away. What you were saying about six months later, eight months later, you know, when he first passed, you know, of course, the whole church shows up and we had like 30 bundt cakes in which I ate all of and we had, you know, people coming by with casseroles.

And, I mean, they really turn out in the Midwest. It is like a hot dish, just extravaganza. But two years after he passed, I was visiting my mom and I was heading out with friends and my mom was standing at the kitchen sink and she was she was crying and my mom never cries. And I said, you know, Mom, what's wrong?

Are you okay? And she said, I would have really liked to have been included in some of your plans. I was just busy going out with friends and doing my thing that I'd always done. And she said, You know, everyone comes by the first three months after you lose your after you lose your husband, and then they forget.

And I am still very much missing him and grieving him. And I feel very lonely. And I mean, I just we just I just, you know, held her and and brought her out to dinner with me and and I felt so terrible that I had been so ignorant of the pain that she was in as a grieving widow.

And I was grieving my dad in a totally different way. So I think that what you mention is really important about continuing to check in and show up.

VANESSA

Yeah. When you thank you for showing that. And I guess I'm sorry, but you can't do that. But when you've said that, I got goosebumps and this part and I want to say this and this is important too, that each person in the family is going to grieve the person in a different way. And that's okay. And that part's important.

And you're not supposed to know all that. Right? And this is that part of having dialogs together about our grief that I think are so imperative and so important right in this piece, you know, we often call this the drop off, whether it's the six month drop off or the year drop off where people show up in droves.

Right. And then the year comes and it's quiet and graeber's have the sense of like, well, I'm still grieving. I'm still going to be grieving for a long time. And so to that, to add to the conversation we were just having is this beautiful piece that you're talking about of don't only show up in the beginning, continue to show up through the life right.

I will never forget this. And to this day, well, I know who it is. Now, on his birthday, a beautiful bouquet of flowers would show up to my door for me. It was such a beautiful gift that someone was acknowledging his birthday and my love for him on this day. Because again, in grief, when we're talking about their birthdays, we're talking about our anniversaries.

Their death anniversaries are also important. Right? All of these very specific dates and times. Then we come into the holiday time dates are so important for drivers. And so I think that's a beautiful thing to bring into of how do we show up for people? Do we do other people know those dates as well? When someone acknowledges those dates for us is great because we feel really seen and heard that we're not we're not the only one.

JENNY

That's so I think that's so good to hear because I think a lot of people think I don't want to bring up something sad. I don't want to I don't want to, you know, bring us back into something painful. And if I if I send the flowers, it's it's going to make them feel bad and sad.

VANESSA

And, yeah, it's interesting, too, that this person sent the flowers on his birthday, which is a celebration of his life rather than on the day of his death. For me, there was something very symbolic about it was his it was the day he came into this world, you know, and that was really beautiful to me. Yeah. This piece that you bring in of letting people people often feel again this way of, like, hope.

I don't want to make her sad. I don't want to make him sad. I don't want to make them sad. I think. Hold on to this for who's listening, who's not a griever. We're already feeling it. You acknowledging it for us actually makes us feel like we're not going. You know, we're not alone in that. We're not as isolated in it.

We want you bring it in, makes us feel seen and so for me, I'm like, send the thing, make the phone call, bring the soup. Like, I'm going to remember that, you know, and that for me is such a beautiful thing that I wish we we did more for each other.

JUSTIN

I'm imagining the person, the people I met and I used to be one of these who is afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing because they don't want to make the grieving person sad. This person I'm imagining, has not learned how to grieve themselves. They haven't gone through any grieving themselves. And it wasn't until . . . .So I one of the things I do is I work in the world of childhood cancer. And so we've walked with many parents through this. And I thought I understood grief because I had been to so many funerals. But it wasn't until I had a really profound grief experience a couple of years ago that I was like, Oh yeah, no idea.

But before I go down that road, one of the truths in relationships is that whatever we are uncomfortable with in ourselves, we're going to try to squash for other people. Yeah, whatever we're not okay with inside, we're going to squash in other people. And so that's one thing that I just want to throw out there for any listeners. And I know this because of my own personal life, I have squashed so much in my life because of what I have been uncomfortable with inside.

That is, these feelings are coming up of like, Oh, I don't want to bring it up. I don't want to go there. Oh, man, that is a sign that like you're ready for your own grief journey.

JENNY

And chances are they're not listening to this podcast. I'm, you know, just saying.

JUSTIN

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe, maybe somebody has it on and their partner's listening.

VANESSA

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. And a shift. A shift gets to occur there. But this part, you know, this is what happens on the other side in the room here that I'm sitting in now is people say, well, I didn't. Why did they say that to me? Why did they say like, oh, like, you know, and I think you're right on Justin, and I often tell people it has nothing to do with you. You know, it has to do with them being uncomfortable with death for themselves, having these conversations with themselves. Right. People want to make it, wrap it up and you're going to be okay. You're going to survive. You know, all those things. Of course we want to. We know those things. Maybe we don't really feel them as truths very early on.

But I think that hits home that most people, you know, are sitting with a lot of uncomfortability. So when I have these workshops or do these educational talks, I often ask the people in the room to think about How did your family talk about death? Did you talk about death? Did you go to funerals when you were a child?

Did your parents talk to you about how the body works? You know, and most people have this very interesting and profound dialog as we come back together and talk about, wow, I don't even think about that. You know, I didn't think about how we processed or if I was blocked off from that in myself, you know. And so it relates to some really beautiful discussion about how do we cultivate that as adults now without being scared.

JUSTIN

That one thing that I have discovered is that we don't have a choice about whether or not we're going to grieve, like when we experience loss of someone who we love and who is close to us. If we don't grieve, it gets stored as, you know, like the body keeps the score. And so if yeah. So for this is, this is one thing that that was part of my profound grief journey was like, oh, whoa, whoa, there is so much here.

There's so much grief here that I had no idea was in my body. And it was I mean, it was a lot of just weeping and wailing and it's like it didn't even have any content at some point it was just like, Oh my God, this is just like waves. And it's like, Oh, I've been holding a lot for a long time.

VANESSA

Yeah, you remind me of that quote that I often say that I love, which is grief is just our love with nowhere to go. I don't know if you've heard that quote. And it's that part of being able to like, what do I do with this now? Right. And when we talk about movement and ritual, this is the part for me and the sorrow and allowing to promote that.

JUSTIN

And the realization for me has been that when I have been able and I've I think I've had like two really profound grieving experiences where it's just been like huge. And what I've experienced with both of those is that that quote, grief is love with nowhere to go. It is it's more the feeling was grief is like the the aftershocks of love and that I can't really open up for more love in my life until all I've really done the grieving and so it's almost like this like cleansing of like, oh, actually I've done this like, oh my God, I have more room in my heart for more love and more connection and more peace and presence.

VANESSA

And and what a beautiful thing.

JENNY

Yeah, well, it's and it's exactly what we what we know as therapists. Right. Which is that when we, when we kill off one bad emotions, we also kill off good emotions like that the spectrum gets we start to live on a little island of just a few things that we can tolerate. And when we start to allow the pain, we also allow more joy.

And it starts to grow and grow and grow. And it's I mean, it's and I think I just I love that quote too. It's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing to remember.

VANESSA

And this piece you're talking about is something that I often talk about with my clients. This is about balance. You know, at the beginning, grief is like up here, right? It's like, I can't feel any of this joy. I've got so much grief. It's so heavy. The waves are so high, you know? And I think in being able to express, to connect, to talk, to be in sorrow together, to be in community together, we start to notice that I'm still here, right?

How do I take care of me in this? How do I survive in this? You know, and that this we hold both, you know, for me, grief work is about admitting. And this is often the first thing people say when they call me. How long am I going to be grieving, Vanessa? You know, and I'm like, Are you ready?

I'm going to tell you, like, this is not the answer you want to hear. But as long as your love is still alive, that's how long you're going to grieve, you know? And and that's that. But that's the truth, right now. The difference is we're not going to be in that acute phase for the rest of our life.

Right. But we want to make sure that we're in the love and in the grief and in the loving and having this very balanced right for music over time equilibrium so that we can find that and be present in that.

JENNY

I had a therapist once. I was grieving a relationship. This person was still alive, but it had been quite a doozy. And I asked her that question and she said, 18 months. I think she was just trying to like, you know, okay, yeah, just give me a throw me a bone. And the thing is, in 18 months, the grief had transformed, you know, the experience was very different.

So she was not wrong. But I just was like, okay, 18 months, 18, you know, just kind of.

VANESSA

Right, right. You hold on. Yeah. There. There's that container. You know, the time frame, you know. Yeah. But I do tell people that the sooner that we can connect, the sooner that we can support. Support groups are like the best medicine for for grievers. And so for me, I tell people when they're ready, especially not in acute grief.

People aren't ready then, but when they're when they feel ready to connect. For me, I think this part is when we can start to have some of that alleviating and connecting and bringing people into that. You know, that part of that, I think, gives people a container, too, and it's not so much about time as it is about when we're having when we're finding our tribe.

JUSTIN

We've talked a little bit about the holidays. You encourage people to develop not only their individual rituals, but these social co-created rituals that if people want to just the holidays altogether, you know, that that's that's certainly an option. Now I'm thinking, all right, so we get through the holidays and the new year comes. And I'm curious if there are different rituals or different tools or ideas that you have around really continuing to grieve in a healthy way as you move into a new year?

VANESSA

So I think especially we're coming in to holiday time, the grief and the anxiety gets really ramped up, right? We really see a kick in these peaks. So I think after the holiday time, there is a sense of relief. But also like now what? Like I'm the holidays are gone, but I'm still grieving.

A colleague of mine who I adore, her name is Dr. Terry Daniel, and she talks about restoration and being able to be you know, we're often in our grief, but we're not often mindful of moments in which where restoration are restored, you know, restorative moments, I call them. Right. So really being able to pay attention to I'm actively choosing to be in restoration.

What are things in my life I'm doing right to maybe not be in my grief, right? It's already in the background. Right. And so talking to people about what restoration looks like, are there rooms in the house in which you feel more a restoration than you do other rooms of the house, right. When was the last time that you moved your body in a way that felt restorative?

What does that look like for you? Being being mindful of the isolation and the social right and finding a balance. And that is the restoration in either one of those for people. So finding that balance of the restoration and the grief I think for me is really important. And this piece of content using to have community, continuing to have a grief tribe continuing to say their name, continuing to have dialog with people, just be kindness is important.

Like we talk about just because holiday time is done doesn't mean we're done. Again, that part of showing up and being present I think is really important.

JENNY

Well, I don't want to take us off in a direction, but I just want.

JUSTIN

I was just going to take us off in a direction. So I love that you're going to do that first.

JENNY

We'll zig and then we'll zag. Okay. So last month we talked about woo and I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to circle back as the kids say. Can you talk to me at all about the role of woo and spirituality that plays in people grieving and how you work with that as a therapist? I'm just curious if or however you want to speak to it.

VANESSA

I think it's so fascinating to me how people might not want to talk about it. But when I bring it up, when I bring up spirituality, I bring up I often ask Mike Rivers, what do you believe about what happens to us when we die? Where do we go? What are we connected? I'm a big Bond person in my work, so I often talk about the bond that we have with our loved ones.

And in grief, our bond is the one thing our love is the one thing that grief cannot take away from us. And so I do a lot of bond work, you know, and this piece of what does that does our bond have a color? Where is it in our body? Is it outside of our body? Like, you know, and and having these discussions with people and people really connect to this piece and people bring in a lot of their own ideas about journeys, spirituality, connection.

Talking to our person, I've had several people who want to connect to the mediums, right. And have these discussions but have kind of like this. Should I? Should I not? And my my biggest thing there that I tell people that feels important for you explore the person, explore their background, these types of things, do yourself a gift and go in with no expectations.

You know, I think the hardest thing is when people go in with I want to talk to Brian and I want him to say this and I want to they have a very direct link. I want this and I go, You might not get that. So I'm very realistic with them about that. Go in, take what fits for you, leave what doesn't allow it to be present.

I've had a mixed blend. You know, I've had people who say they've had a really beautiful and profound connection through mediums. And I've had people have had so they've been really disappointed by it. And so I think being gentle and mindful of that for everyone is going to be a different experience. Interestingly enough, we know this to be true.

Like I have a lot of chats and we know this through different grievers. David Kessler writes about this in his book about his mother's death that people often come through through energy and through electricity. And so people will often talk about, I was at home and the lights were off and like the fan just started going off, you know, or the clock on the radio.

The clock. The radio clock is stuck at the time like when he died and it won't move, right? So different things show up in energy like that. And for me, I have people if that for me, if it has meaning for someone, I'm like all about it. I'm like, lean in, you know? And most people want to lean in.

Most people are like, you know, I know someone who they find, they find coins around and they're like, that's, that's like every time there's a coin on the floor, like, it shows up right when I'm going outside of the car or like, it shows up, you know? So for me, I'm all about the symbology and signals and signs for people.

And if that provides a meaning and comfort for them, I'm I think that brings a lot of joy and a lot of peace to people. So in that sense, I think there's a lot of that. And I think readers and I will say this, there are some people who are like, No, that doesn't fit for me. That's not my jam.

I don't believe that I'm a great like for them. That's not going to be something that we're going to work with right? Right. So we have to be there to honor those those parts as well.

JUSTIN

So, Jenny, I'm curious. So I was going to take us in a very similar direction. So you and I were like, well, on the same page.

JENNY

You right now. I know. That's why we're co-hosts.

JUSTIN

Right? So, Jenny, I'm going I'm curious. Now you're you're kind of walking through your own grief journey right now. I'm just super curious. Are there any practices, anything in in this world of spirituality that you are kind of reconnecting with or connecting with, that you're finding helpful?

JENNY

Yeah. Well, and Vanessa, just to loop you in, my my mother is in the last part of her life and she's on hospice and it could probably be there for a long time. But she's had a very steep and sudden decline recently. And and it has. Wow. Does mother grief kick up intense stuff? Oh, my Lord. It's it's thrown our whole family dynamic into conflict.

And it's just it's just been it been painful to go through and fascinating, honestly, as a therapist to witness. I've just been like, wow, this is like we are really in it together. And and so what's been happening for me, I share it in our last Woo podcast. Justin I keep having these visualizations of like mother deities, like Mother Mary and this goddess, this Indian goddess, and you know, that represents the Divine Mother and, and I just keep having these moments where usually, right when I'm waking up in the morning and I just have these like visualizations where they're just holding me.

And I have to say, it brings a lot of comfort because a lot of the grief is not just the, you know, the loss of loop watching, you know, my mother die and knowing the loss that's coming. But it's also the the complex relationship that we've had. And there was a lot of a lot of odyssey, a lot of complexity there, you know, and there's a lot of loss and grief there that's not concrete, you know, it's just very emotional.

And so that that has been that has keep showing up. So I just kind of keep going with it. And then this is not so much spiritual, though, I have to say. It's feeling very spiritual is my I'm you know, I'm seeing and working with an internal family systems therapist right now and wow the I have never cried so much in therapy in my life.

And that's saying something because I am I'm a highly sensitive person. I'm a crier. Like, you know, it's not hard for me to connect to tears. Wow. And I have to say that cathartic crying. I go in and I feel like, oh, this is never going to feel better. And then I have an session and I connect with these young parts.

I have a really intense cry and then I feel what you're talking about on the other side, which is this immense love, this immense capacity for connection and and the love that I have in my chosen family. And so it's been I get chills, but it's been very rich and it's just been a tight, close tension between pain and beauty. Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, you know, the whole the whole way.

JUSTIN

Oh, I get so excited when I hear that stuff because my question, Vanessa, for you was around like the particular practices that can kind of move people into deeper stages of grief. And so I think IFS is a practice that can do this, and I think IFS absolutely has a spiritual side to it.

VANESSA

Absolutely. And Jenny, I appreciate you bringing me into that dialogue. And I recently heard this and I think I visualized the Compassion Tent. You know, we're all entering the Compassion Tent, you know, together. And and this in this place together. And it made me think about that as we're all kind of in our little, you know, on our screens right now, but all grieving in different ways, you know, and connecting those pieces.

And Jenny, you brought something up, too, that I really which is really beautiful and I think so important. You know, grief work is not always pretty. And I'm when I say that, I mean the relationship we don't put our person on a pedestal, you know. And I tell people that when they come into a group like this is not about just the good stuff.

It's we're going to grieve the good, the bad, the in-between, the nitty gritty, the right.

You know, and people are like, Oh, I can say the thing that he made me pissed, like, I was pissed that he didn't bring the stuff in from the trash. I'm feeling guilty about that. I'm like, This is what it's about. Like, Oh, we need to talk about those messy pieces because if we weren't, we were not being authentic, right?

About the life and the love that we had. Relationships are layered. They're, you know, and so I really appreciate your bringing that in because I think a lot of people will think, goodness, I didn't know I could say the things about him. You know? Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And if this work, the parts work is so powerful, right?

Because so much I think a lot of a lot of youngness comes out in our grief. You know, we become, you know, these to this tender parts, these child parts, these to be journey. That visualization of feeling held, you know, really resonates with me. You know, it's like, who's holding me now, you know, and where. And so that really sits with me.

And so I think what a beautiful thing to do. I'm glad you're connecting and having those experiences.

JENNY

Yeah, I just there was one visualization in IFS where I my my mom as a little girl came in and the and myself as a little girl and we were like buddies. And it was this really beautiful moment of like, oh, we would have been I think we would have been good friends, you know, but maybe, maybe would have been different than mother daughter was in our jam.

But I think we would have been good friends, you know, and it makes me think of Elizabeth Gilbert, you know, when she was her her her partner was dying and was also dealing with drug addiction. And Elizabeth Gilbert was just in all this immense grief and confusion. And she was she was seeking to communicate with her partner's higher self.

She was like, I can't I can't reach you right now, but I can maybe think about communicate with your higher self. And that's where we can, we can be together. And I don't I had something that struck me about that as a beautiful grief work. When you are mourning the loss, a complicated relationship or a relationship that was filled with a lot of love but also a lot of pain.

JUSTIN

Jenny, I just I want to say that that was what my most recent profound grieving experience was about that we talked about, I think two episodes ago in the breathwork session in Sedona. So Vanessa, last month I was in Sedona for a retreat and I don't have you ever done holotropic breathwork?

VANESSA

All right. I'm not sure about the holotropic part, but I've done breath work. And also, by the way, I love Sedona.

JUSTIN

Yeah, well, so. Yeah. So mix Sedona with, like, really intense breathwork. I think in other contexts it might be called shamanic breathwork or somatic release breathwork, but it's basically like 60 minutes of intense breathing and it's like a non ordinary state of consciousness and so anyways, I was not going in thinking about my grandfather who had passed away two years ago, but because of the book, The Smell of Rain on Dust that I've been reading leading up to the retreat that was a part of what was going on in this retreat.

And one of the things I was coming through was like, I never properly grieved him because he was such a complex character, so many things about him that I could not just embrace. And I mean some really big ones. And during the retreat, there were moments in some of the practices that we were doing that allowed me to grieve not not him, but some of the pain that he caused.

And so it was like grieving that pain and then letting that go. And then during this Breathwork session, which was one of the most intense experience I've ever had in my life it was just, I mean, just amazing. And I was able to connect with my grandfather's spirit in this, really, for me, it was this really just clean way.

And so this idea of connecting with his higher self or higher, I don't know, whatever you want to call it, but it was the sense of like, Oh, I've acknowledged and I grieved all the pain that you caused and I let that go and now we can just be here. And then I felt like I was able to kind of like walk him over to the other side and have felt I mean, there was a lot of just wailing and tears involved in that, but it but it felt so good to be able to just honestly confront who this man was, but then also experience this love and then just the simple grief.

VANESSA

Wow. So profound and so beautiful. Yeah, it was so unexpected.

JUSTIN

Oh, yeah. So I guess the real quick question, I have is, do you what do you what do you think about these, like more ecstatic kind of transcendent experiences that can lead people deeper into grief? So Breathwork would be one, psychedelics would be one. What do you think about that?

VANESSA

I think you know, and we'll talk more later about what's what's what I'm cultivating, what's happening and bringing some of these pieces into this new center that I'm building. And I think for me, again, movement, if we can have movement in any physical energy, emotional body work, breathwork, if people are in and people want to move and they're open to move and be open to receive whatever comes, I think it's beautiful.

And I think being able to do, you know, I do a lot of power for is powerful. I was just sitting here on this couch other night with someone who they're like, I haven't seen her in a long time. And I was like, Do you want to see her? You know? And we sat in this room together and we did a guided visualization and sat with her.

And like, there was this sense like, when they came back into this room, they're like, oh, my gosh. Like, I didn't even know I could do that. You know, I connected in that way and have, you know, I'm such a beautiful thing to be able to provide and that they could they could go there any time they want, you know.

And so for me, I think it's a gift to have that if people are open to experiencing what might come, like you said, just in like I didn't know what was going to come, but I was open to it. Whatever unfolded and leaned in, leaning in, right, leaning in saying, yeah.

JUSTIN

Oh well, I want to be sure that we get to our final three questions that we ask every guest, and it feels like an abrupt shift, you know, but we can maybe continue with this theme in your answer. So the first question is, if you could put a Post-it note on everybody's fridge tomorrow morning, what would that Post-it note say?

VANESSA

I'm so glad you're here.

JUSTIN

And is there a recent quote that has changed the way you think or feel?

VANESSA

As Jenny knows, I'm a huge quote person, and I was thinking about this one today again in the theme of movement. And the one right now that's really sitting with me is from Christopher Poindexter. And it says "She writes things with her movements that I, for the life of me, could never write with a pen." And this part of again, moving know whatever form that might be and the powerful ness that comes from movement.

And so that one has really been sitting there and I have not heard that quote before, but I love it.

JUSTIN

Yeah, we yeah, we can write with our movements what we can never write with our pen. And then the final question is what is giving you hope right now?

VANESSA

Yeah, I would say two things. As Jenny knows, I have been and this is the work that I've been doing has been moving me to take more action in this work. And so I am in the process right now of launching and opening a grief center here in Pasadena. It has and I as I've heard, this is the journey.

Like my energy has shifted, I think with COVID. Yes. I also had a death of a friend that happened earlier in this year. And I think it really kicked me into a I think Greg got me into this work and just really propelled me into making this center and my energy has just been on fire in terms of building a tribe in a community for people to come together.

And so I'm really in the throes of it right now. And it's really I feel very artistic in it. It feels very creative. And this pairs into, as Jenny knows, my other my other space that provides me so much of a sanctuary, which is I've found and fallen in love with the wood clay. And I have gone down the clay rabbit hole and I've been doing ceramics and being in the studio has really given me a lot of hope in my life.

And a lot of when we talk about transformation, you know, heavy, heavy bag of clay. And so creating something with levity and lightness.

JUSTIN

And the movement.

VANESSA

And the movement and the movement and so so I'm putting these two worlds together and the clay. I'll just share this with you because it'll bring it in, I think beautifully. There's a, there's a Japanese word which you may have heard called Kintsugi, and it's the ceramic word and Japanese for repairing and mending our broken pieces. And rather than throwing things, remember them.

And so the very dear friend of mine who passed was in my ceramics community with me. And so to me that this just kind of naturally came to be consumed in grief center. And so bringing these pieces together in my life. Yeah. So that's, that's what's happened.

JENNY

So I'm so excited for this grief center. Vanessa, we need it so desperately. We need it. I feel very lucky that it's going to be 10 minutes away in the in the hood. Yeah.

VANESSA

Yeah. So. So, Justin, when you say this, I want to just bring this up because you bring up a good point for me, bringing these pieces in the community. Yes, we're doing grief group, but then we're also doing these community parts and doing things like the breath work, bringing people in to do grief and yoga workshop, you know, these types of movement, grief and art. So that other piece that is so that movement that so yeah.

JUSTIN

Oh, my gosh. Vanessa, this has been amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that we were able to connect and do this episode. Jenny, thank you for connecting us.

VANESSA

Oh, thank you both for having me so much. And can I tell you, like as I often tell Jenny, like I often feel just like the silly grief person, like, you know, the grief person. And I have people who want to openly talk more about this for me brings me a lot of, again, energy and excitement. And I'm so grateful to share it and I'm so grateful that people want to talk more about it.

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